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 Breeding and Stats Clarification
Rixie
 Posted: Jan 12 2018, 12:55 PM
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Lore


A few questions, because I'm interested in these mechanics and might be addicted to coding Pokemon-related things.

Quotes ripped directly from: link

"Each successful breeding may result in 1-3 eggs (a moderator will roll for this)."
What are the chances? (Are we allowed to know?) For instance, is it 50% to get 1 egg, etc?

"Each species, gender, and ability have an equal chance of being chosen."
So, for species and ability, I get this. But for gender, what if the species is a skewed gender ratio? Like if you breed a Bulbasaur, is it the normal 87.5% to be male?

"By default, each egg move has a 10% chance of manifesting."
The entire list of possible egg move? Or only the egg moves that are normally passed on by the other-species-parent? For example, Eevee can learn any of: Captivate, Charm, Covet, Curse, Detect, Endure, Fake Tears, Flail, Natural Gift, Stored Powder, Synchronoise, Tickle, Wish, and Yawn. So do each of those get a 10% chance of manifesting? This would mean Pokemon with lots of possible egg moves have an advantage over Pokemon with just four or five. Perhaps the chance could scale with number of possible egg moves...? Or we could just leave it simple.

Assuming Eevee's parent is, however, a Glameow... Glameow is only supposed to be able to pass on Captivate and Charm, based on the Bulbapedia breeding moves chart. So would it have a 10% chance to get Captivate and Charm, and 0% chance to get any of the others? (This is super complicated and I personally don't like it. But I want to check to see what the intentions are in the first place.)
Side note: Since we operate differently with Eevee and say it can't breed outside its various Eeveelutions... this would mean that Eevee and its Eeveelutions basically can't have egg moves...

"If the mother or father knows one of the egg moves that the baby can learn, however, the chances for that egg move bump up to 75%."
What if the mother AND father both know the egg move? 100%? 95%?

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Jani
 Posted: Jan 12 2018, 08:47 PM
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Admin


A lot of these mechanics haven't been fully explored, so I'm glad for these questions~

- "Each successful breeding may result in 1-3 eggs (a moderator will roll for this)."

It was never actually decided, but I'm thinking 50% / 35% / 15% or 50% / 40% / 10%.

- "Each species, gender, and ability have an equal chance of being chosen."

Yeah, I should have excluded gender from that sentence. My bad.

- "By default, each egg move has a 10% chance of manifesting."

Ohhh, this needs to be changed. I think it should go down to 5%, and it should probably be limited to 4 egg moves. Perhaps the first four rolled, or the four that rolled with the lowest numbers, and with preference given to egg moves that the parents know. That way it's potentially more egg moves than a wild Pokemon could have, but we wouldn't have ridiculous amounts of egg moves. But yes, the entire list of egg moves.

Oh, and I'm going to change it so that Eeveelutions can breed normally, though of course they are still their own separate species. Not sure why I wanted to limit their breeding capabilities.

- "If the mother or father knows one of the egg moves that the baby can learn, however, the chances for that egg move bump up to 75%."

Hm, this should be changed, too. Maybe 50% if one parent knows the move, 75% if both parents know the move.

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Rixie
 Posted: Jan 14 2018, 08:58 PM
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Lore


- "By default, each egg move has a 10% chance of manifesting."

“Ohhh, this needs to be changed. I think it should go down to 5%, and it should probably be limited to 4 egg moves. Perhaps the first four rolled, or the four that rolled with the lowest numbers, and with preference given to egg moves that the parents know. That way it's potentially more egg moves than a wild Pokemon could have, but we wouldn't have ridiculous amounts of egg moves. But yes, the entire list of egg moves.”

I think it should still be at least a bit randomized. “Lowest four” means every breeding attempt will result in four egg moves. I think it would be cool if we had a standard bell curve. I could have it mirror the current way we check for egg moves for wild spawns. For example, 50% chance to get 3 egg moves, 20% chance to get 4... etc. And then roll for what those moves will be. I will admit; I’m extremely amused by the prospect of a baby Pokémon being born with like 5 egg moves. But that would have to be a 1% chance or something. So, considering how few Pokémon would probably be bred, it would almost definitely never occur. But it’s theoretically possible!



- "If the mother or father knows one of the egg moves that the baby can learn, however, the chances for that egg move bump up to 75%."

“Hm, this should be changed, too. Maybe 50% if one parent knows the move, 75% if both parents know the move.”

I’ll admit: I’m not fond of this idea. It seems to me that if both parents know a move, it would be extremely likely for the children to know it too. Especially if egg moves are a recessive genetic trait. If the egg move is a dominant trait, then I suppose it would be possible for both parents to be carriers of the recessive no-move trait. IF both parents were carriers, THEN the egg move would have a 75% chance. But overall I think it makes more sense for stuff like egg moves to be recessive traits. And that would mean that if both parents have it, the offspring would have it too. If only one parent had it, then the second parent could be a carrier or not have the gene at all. If the second parent were a carrier, it would have a 50% chance of having the move. If the second parent didn’t have it, then the offspring would have nearly 0% chance to get the trait.

Mostly I think it seems strange that both parents know a move and theres such a high chance the offspring doesn’t.

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Jani
 Posted: Jan 14 2018, 10:20 PM
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Admin


Ugh replying on my phone because WiFi is down

-no, you misunderstand what I mean. We reduce the chance to 5% and IF over 4 egg moves are rolled successfully, meaning they rolled a 5 or lower on over 4 egg moves, THEN the 4 egg moves that had the lowest numbers rolled would be the ones chosen.

We could also do something that more closely resembles how we roll for wild egg moves, but we would have to change the chances because I do want it to be more likely for a player-bred Pokemon to have more egg moves than a wild. If we go with this though, we might run into issues with inheritance. Ie a pokemon whose parents know lots of passable egg moves has the same chance of only learning 1 egg move as a pokemon whose parents know no passable egg moves. Did I explain that in a way that makes sense? Cuz I can't tell and boy do I hate phone typing.

-Mostly I hate guaranteeing anything. I hate 100% certainty. I hate making things... Easy xD

I feel like genetic traits can be a lot more complicated than simply dominant/recessive. Maybe multiple genes/traits play into if an egg move is expressed or not? I admit though that your biology knowledge probably exceeds mine, so I defer to you on the science of this.

Plus it's a little weird that learnable skills are being inherited at all xD Like, why didn't I inherit my dad's ability to code. I want that as my egg move.

I could be convinced to raise the percentage, though, I think, if that is what is realistic?

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Kaien
 Posted: Jan 15 2018, 07:45 AM
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Admin


Hey look Kaien is finally participating in things again 8,D

Egg move Chances

For the sake of clarity, I'm just going to spell this out from what I believe is being stated. (for others reading, cause it's a little hard to follow and keep scrolling up and down to reference points from Jani & Rixie XD)

Baby starts with 0 egg moves, no matter what.

IF ONLY one parent has an egg move that is passable to child, then Mod rolls a 50% chance for that specific move to manifest. IF BOTH parents have the same egg move that is passable, then Mod rolls a 75% chance for that specific move to manifest (Egg moves not to exceed 4 moves.)

Chances below for a baby with parents that have NO egg moves, or remaining spots AFTER parents' egg moves have been rolled (If rolls remaining, again not to exceed 4).

Mod rolls 5% chance for egg move 1.
Mod rolls 5% chance for egg move 2.
Mod rolls 5% chance for egg move 3.
Mod rolls 5% chance for egg move 4.

Then, mod tallies how many were rolled (Say if rolls 1 & 4 were successful, then baby gets 2 egg moves). Mod now randomizes from list of egg moves to determine which two moves develop.

Let me know if this is wrong. I believe this is correct though.

Biology ~~

I think 75% is fine, but I can see where Rixie is coming from. Still, I would consider 75% in the extremely likely range. It still makes it more likely the pokemon will inherit the move than not, without ensuring that it happens every time.

If there is one thing we know from trait inheritance, it's that it is complex and things happen against the probability all the time. I mean, I have red hair, and neither of my parents nor many of their family members have it (Including my mother's 6 brothers, 1 sister, all of their kids, their kids kids, her father, my dad's parents and extended family) which defies all probability xD I'm still trying to figure out how that happened. I think keeping egg moves recessive in theory is better (also, let's try not to overcomplicate the process too much by digging too far into the science of how egg moves are passed and what strand of DNA they align to xD)

I understand that, scientifically speaking, the trait in order to perform a move passsing is extremely likely. However, in this case, I think it's important to consider that just because a creature has the proper genetics to do something, doesn't necessarily mean that they can do it. So, a pokemon could receive the genes in order to be physically capable of performing an egg move, but they could just not be able to actually use the move in life, ergo accounting for a specific individual's skills and abilities against their genetics.


"-Mostly I hate guaranteeing anything. I hate 100% certainty. I hate making things... Easy xD"

LMAO I read that line in the perfect voice

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Jani
 Posted: Jan 15 2018, 02:23 PM
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Admin


Egg Move Chances

what I'm suggesting for the egg moves is a little different. Let me write up an example or two to more clearly illustrate what I am suggesting~

Mommy Meganium breeds with Daddy Venusaur and to create Baby Bulbasaur.

Mommy Meganium's passable egg moves: Magical Leaf, Petal Dance.
Daddy Venusaur's passable egg moves: Petal Dance

Baby Bulbasaur's possible egg moves, listed with percentage of likelihood that Baby Bulba could learn it. You would roll for each egg move's chance of manifesting separately. I will roll for this example and include the rolls I got in parenthesis.
Amnesia 5% (65)
Curse 5% (76)
Endure 5% (56)
Giga Drain 5% (27)
Grass whistle 5% (45)
Grassy Terrain 5% (62)
Ingrain 5% (18)
Leaf Storm 5% (71)
Magical Leaf* 50% (36)
Nature Power 5% (16)
Petal Dance** 75% (50)
Power whip 5% (72)
Skull Bash 5% (31)
Sludge 5% (12)

Each egg move has to make a roll of 5 or less to be learned, unless the parent knows the one of the moves that the baby can learn as an egg move. Because one parent knew Magical Leaf, the chance was 50. Because both parents knew Petal Dance, the chance was 75.

In this scenario, Baby Bulba would have the egg moves Magical Leaf and Petal Dance. If many of the rolls had been under 5, we would have chosen the lowest four egg moves for Baby Bulba to learn, with preference given first to Magical Leaf and Petal Dance since those were given through the parents and not through chance.

That is the method I have been suggesting. The main weakness of this method, as Rixie stated, is that it gives an advantage to Pokemon who have a large pool of potential egg moves over Pokemon who have a small pool of potential egg moves. And, looking at it now, I'm wondering if it should be tweaked to give bred Pokemon more of a chance to learn egg moves. As I already stated, I do want player-bred Pokemon to have a higher chance of having egg moves than wild encounters.

I'm not stuck like glue to this idea, however. I can be convinced to take on another method of rolling for this, assuming these ideas are all kept: 1. Player-bred Pokemon have a higher chance of having egg moves than their wild counterparts. 2. No moves are guaranteed. 3. Passable egg moves (moves that the baby can learn as an egg move that one or more of the parents already know) have a significantly higher chance of being learned than other egg moves. 4. All egg moves have at least a small chance of manifesting. 5. There is a cap of either 4 or MAYBE 5 on how many egg moves can be learned.

-

Biology

ugh, science and learning why do we do this to ourselves

As I said though, I could be willing to boost the chances of passable egg moves if it would make more sense, biologically speaking. Perhaps as high as 85? I do like things to make sense. But as previously stated, I hate to have things be guaranteed.

which is why you will never ever ever ever ever find a masterball on this site.

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Rixie
 Posted: Jan 15 2018, 03:16 PM
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Lore


85% would be a good compromise. I think maybe it mostly bothers me to have 75% because my days in genetics class screams: "Two heterozygous dominant parents!" It's, as far as I know, the only thing that has 75% chance of offspring having the trait.

"I understand that, scientifically speaking, the trait in order to perform a move passsing is extremely likely. However, in this case, I think it's important to consider that just because a creature has the proper genetics to do something, doesn't necessarily mean that they can do it. So, a pokemon could receive the genes in order to be physically capable of performing an egg move, but they could just not be able to actually use the move in life, ergo accounting for a specific individual's skills and abilities against their genetics."
Just quick note regarding this: yes, definitely. Which is why I was hoping for something like 90% or 95%, not 100%. As I said though, 85% is a good compromise.

Jani thank you for that list. It makes things super clear!

"...it gives an advantage to Pokemon who have a large pool of potential egg moves over Pokemon who have a small pool of potential egg moves. And, looking at it now, I'm wondering if it should be tweaked to give bred Pokemon more of a chance to learn egg moves. As I already stated, I do want player-bred Pokemon to have a higher chance of having egg moves than wild encounters."

Yes, I would also like player-bred Pokemon to have higher chance of learning egg moves. I think the best way to get around that weakness/advantage towards Pokemon with large pool of egg moves is to just roll for number of egg moves the way we do for wild Pokemon, but of course with a different percent chance. For instance, wild Pokemon right now have:

Wild Pokemon Egg Move Chance:
33% no egg moves
22% one egg move
22% two egg moves
11% three egg moves
(P.S. If you ever want to change these, it's super easy now that I have a generator that does the math for you; I can just literally plug in different percentages)

So we could do something like a nice standard normal curve with a mean of 2.5 and a s.d. of 1, which I think would look like this:
Bred Pokemon Egg Move Bell Curve:
0.15% ...wait...um... yeah this would probably be added to the 0 egg moves. I was not thinking clearly when I chose my mean and s.d.
2.35% 0 egg moves
13.5% 1 egg move
34% 2 egg moves
34% 3 egg moves
13.5% 4 egg moves
2.35% 5 egg moves
(optional) 0.15% 6 egg moves

Naturally we could change the s.d. or mean as necessary, to give the desired results. Or just make it not-a-bell-curve. I'm not super attached to the idea; just throwing it out there.

So what if, after rolling for the number of egg moves, it then picked out that many egg moves?

To use your super wonderful and clear and amazing example, let's return to Baby Bulba.
Roll 1-100. (56) So Baby Bulba will have 3 egg moves.
First do the moves that are most likely, and see if they make it in:
Petal Dance 85% (37) Success. Baby Bulba's 1st egg move is Petal Dance.
Magical Leaf 50% (73) No go.

Now randomly select two of the moves from the list below (not including Petal Dance and Magical Leaf):
Amnesia
Curse
Endure
Giga Drain
Grass whistle
Grassy Terrain
Ingrain
Leaf Storm
Nature Power
Power whip
Skull Bash
Sludge

Randomized Amnesia and Ingrain from the list.

So the end result is Baby Bulba knows Petal Dance, Amnesia, and Ingrain.


[br]


One more... gulp... thing... I almost hate to even bring it up, as my feelings towards it are fairly ambiguous. Possibly ambivalent. I'm ambivalent about whether my feelings towards it are ambiguous or ambivalent.

Parents knowing an egg move... Should be an advantage, yeah? Like... Not only would it make the baby more likely to know egg moves, but maybe it would also make the baby more likely to just... have more egg moves total? What I'm proposing is that, let's say the average number of egg moves is 2.5, if neither parent knows an egg move. So baby Pokemon are often born with 2 or 3 egg moves. That is the natural genetics or whatnot: enough mutations occur within every generation to provide 2 or 3 new traits/moves showing up.

But then you also need to take into account that if the parent(s) have a cool trait/move as well... and those are more likely to show up than random mutations/long-lost moves lurking within the genome.

Essentially, I'm proposing it works like this instead:

Bred Pokemon Egg Move Bell Curve, Edited for Balance
2.5% 0 egg moves
13.5% 0 egg move
34% 1 egg moves
34% 2 egg moves
13.5% 3 egg moves
2.5% 4 egg moves

Say I roll a lucky (86), so Baby Bulba gets 3 non-parent egg moves.

Now we randomly pick 3 from the egg moves that could be learned.
Amnesia
Curse
Endure
Giga Drain
Grass whistle
Grassy Terrain
Ingrain
Leaf Storm
Nature Power
Power whip
Skull Bash
Sludge

Giga Drain, Grass Whistle, and Leaf Storm are randomly selected from the list.

Now, those were just the randomly-mutated (or just randomly-emergent, like someone getting red hair even though the last time there was red hair in the family tree is like seven generations ago), non-parent-inherited egg moves. We also need to take into account the parent's stuff:
Petal Dance 85% (75) Success
Magical Leaf 50% (41) Success

This Bulbasaur gets lucky with all its rolls, so it gets 3 random moves and also inherits 2 moves from its parents, for a total of Giga Drain, Grass Whistle, Leaf Storm, Petal Dance, and Magical Leaf.

Now that I'm looking at it, maybe too OP. But it would give a good incentive to try to breed Pokemon with good egg moves instead of just random Pokemon*, and a way to get those pesky egg moves that can't be taught (right?) into Pokemon lineages, without sacrificing the interest of "ooh what random new things will pop up?" Yeah I think this would be too OP, and give bred Pokémon TOO much advatange.

*Actually, now that I've thought about it, that's not a good argument. Because the other method also gives a good incentive to try and breed Pokemon with good egg moves - your number of egg moves can get eaten up / taken up if the parents have bad moves. I've gone from ambivalently ambivalent/ambiguous to feeling like this is a bad idea. But I will post it anyways for the sake of other people being able to weigh in on it.

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Jani
 Posted: Jan 16 2018, 06:36 PM
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Admin


After thinking on it, I think this is a good way to do it. And regarding the second half of your post where Pokemon knowing good egg moves possibly having a chance to pass on more egg moves in general... I think I agree. But maybe we simplify a bit.

Bred Pokemon Egg Move Chances, Parents Know 0-1 Passable Egg Moves

16% 0 egg move
34% 1 egg moves
34% 2 egg moves
13.5% 3 egg moves
2.5% 4 egg moves

Bred Pokemon Egg Move Chances, Parents Know 2-4 Passable Egg Moves

0% 0 egg move
8% 1 egg moves
42% 2 egg moves
42% 3 egg moves
8% 4 egg moves

Bred Pokemon Egg Moves Chances, Parents Know 5+ Passable Egg Moves

2.5% 1 egg moves
13.5% 2 egg moves
34% 3 egg moves
34% 4 egg moves
2.5% 5 egg moves


Does that look good / does that sort of create the effect you were wanting, Rixie? Kaien, any additional thoughts?

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Rixie
 Posted: Jan 16 2018, 07:38 PM
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Lore


Hmm.... Yeah, yeah I think that's more balanced. When I get some freetime (ugh why do I have an essay due...) I'll hack together a simple version and we can give it some test runs and see what we think / if it's too OP or not good enough or whatever.

Uhhhh... it’s really OP.......... =X

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